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Lee
Maybe you could set up a section where people could advertise kits of parts? I'm sure some forum members would be willing to make these? this would help these not so fortunate to have the kit t do the necessary. This way the site would be catering for all types of builders????
I acknowledge what your saying Martin but dont think it would lead to the forum losing its momentum, i think if anything it could raise the standards of what's being discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by martin54
I actually think that there is more to this than is first realised, there is allot of things I can do/plan to do that overall is really going push this to the next level. Let me explain, I/we obviously see time and time again people asking the same questions, I take my hat off to people like Jazz and Jonathan for showing such stamina when it comes to replying to more or less same questions all the time. I also know how boring and frustrating it is for them to keep doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e0poz
Some of you know what I’m about to say already...The plan is to have Articles, Reviews, Tutorials and so on, as these areas of the site start to get populated allot of what will be in each section will be perfect for people coming in as newbie’s. We are going to have a series called “The Basics”, these articles will give people the information they need and a springboard to get them going in the right direction. There is a lot more to all that and other ideas and so on but what it leads me to say is that:
I think allot of “how we move this cnc thing and this forum forward” is relying on me to deliver on what I keep talking about, SOOOO many things will become better for everyone once things really start to take shape with what I’ve got in mind. I’m stressed with it because I know how desperately some of these things are needed to just “make things better/easier” for everyone, the problem I’ve got is its all down to me, believe me I am trying. I’m just really busy and in a difficult position in my personal life to spend the kind of time I need to work on the many projects and ideas I’ve got, but it’s ok because it’s a marathon for me not a sprint, allot of my “vision” for things to come is still young, this forum is only what 4-5 years old now and allot of what is in my ideas has actually come from discussions like these and because of that the my vision has evolved and this introduces new things to think about and decide on, which have a knock on effect to everything else.
Yep, i wouldnt have any problem endorsing? or branding somthing if it would be what you guys would like. (i think that's what you mean't?)
Yea no problem, although we already have the Market Place section of forums for doing that kind of thing. Hehe, maybe now is a good time to talk about freelancemachinist.com....Anyway I’m starting to waffle, it’s getting late and I’m desperate to get back to coding up what will be the “doc” for the chat app I’m working on.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e0poz
.Me
Martin, as you know I am fairly new to this site and only came up with this suggestion because I thought it would be helpful to new and inexperienced cnc wannabies. To build a good little machine and then be able to make some lovely things with it must be very satisfying (I know how I felt when after dozens of hours trying to sort my machine conversion out I was at last able to make something).
I was, and still am thrilled to think that I am now able to have an idea, design, draw then make it. Fantastic - and that from a now 69 year old. I am only sorry that I did not discover cnc years earlier.
Hopefully "bickering" will not enter the equation. I do not see why healthy discussion should harm this site or lead experienced members leaving.
Of course there will some differences of opinion about things, but at the end of the day if we can end up producing something that will encourage new blood then surely that would be a good thing. If this gets off the ground, not everybody will have their own way, somebody will have to consider the various comments and then make their decision - its no good trying to design a machine by committee - and we can then perhaps have the best starter machine available. Without doubt there may be some really good ideas that do not get incorporated, but those ideas will remain on this forum, and may well be used by members in some future project of their own.
Yes, you are right, some people may just download plans and go their own way, but I think that once (site membership might be a requirement to get the plans)
they have joined the site and realized what help is available they too could be stricken by the cnc bug. G.
Geofrey, I'm new to the site as well but have seen this sort of thing tried before & never successfully because it does cause a lot of problems. Biggest problem with the internet is that there is no body language & no tone so what one person says is miss interpreted by another & before you know it things have got out of hand & it's handbags at dawn lol. At present a lot of people find this site after they have made a mistake & are looking for solutions to existing problems not because they have any kind of fascination with cnc machines. I include myself in that number because I had already started to build a machine from a book I bought on the internet about building a low cost machine. I don't believe this project will alter that & I do believe you can give people to much, neither of which is good for the development of the site. The common questions will still get asked by new members who are keen to learn, people don't bother to read or use search options on websites, the answers to most of the common questions are already on the site, many of them as a sticky post so easier to find yet still people ask the questions.
The development of the site as Lee spoke about above in my view would be a far better way to go, have the discussions about build then whoever is running it edit it to take out all the irrelevant comments that you always get as people go off track & then stick them in a section for new people to read. As I say a lot of it is all ready there so this could also be brought in to the same section.
I;m not against this sort of thing as some people seem to think I am it's just that these days I tend to be a bit cynical & someone has to point out the downside to any sort of venture however good it may seem.
If it ends up being a big success then I will be the first person to hold my hand up & say I was wrong, quite happy for that to happen as it means that the forum will have grown, not just registered members but active members which is what you really want to flourish.
Sorry had a long hard think about this and it won't work has some are expecting.
If I can help in some small ways then I will but I'm not prepared to take a lead has to me it's an hiding to nothing and will end up with just a small few doing all the work and others just leeching, while others will just stab and poke for the sake of it.
So I'm declaring my self out.!!
Good luck.
I'm with Jazz for reasons I mentioned before in post #70
Like Jazz I do a lot of work behind the scenes, that won't change but working 1:1 you get to know who's dedicated and who's wanting a free ride.
lets get down to the bare facts.
customer a wants a router 4ft x 4ft to cut ally.
customer b wants an engraver 150mm x 150mm to make fancy pens.
customer c wants to make wooden plaques in a variety of woods and sizes.
You're never going to please everyone, but a basic no frills scaleable router is an easy proposition.
Maybe an established cnc retailer (cough, cough), can supply the range of parts needed to make this router at the right price, and customers a, b and c can get a set of scaleable plans and the parts to bolt everything together.
True you can get cheap routers from the far east, but nobody wants them. Let's be honest they're not very good, they have poor metal, bad machining, crap electronics, and worse than anything else piss poor after sales service.
The members on here like to build so lets give them something to build
Hi, I am currently on holiday in Devon and will be returning home towards the end of the week. I would like some time to consider all the comments made on this site with regards this project on my return. G.
Right I vote Jonathon takes the reigns for the following reasons.
[1] He knows it all.
[2] He's under employed so has loads of time.
[3] He knows all the cheap deals and will share them at the same price he pays.
[4] Prepared to work for nothing.
I second that!
ok that's sorted then...:cheerful:
I concur captain. .:encouragement:
Jonathan such a splendid fellow for volunteering like that :yahoo:
Leeching what though, what happened to "power to the people" and this being the peoples forum. Not everyone is going to be able to contribute in that way but they will be able to benefit from the end product, i thought that was the whole idea of a community project - for the people. We cant expect everyone to have somthing to give, we can expect them to need to take though?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Isnt stabbing and poking generally what happens anyway and when/once any good things from it get exhausted they get passed by or over looked for the greater good?
A free ride of/on what though, see above...Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
Dont know if Jonathon could or would be willing to take it on, he's definitely not under employed and from what i can understand is chasing the clock at times due to furthering his education and living away while he dose that. Cheap deals is a good point though and would suite the project as its about getting somthing done not making money. Humm number 4, other than the first prototype parts and so on i didnt think this was going to be somthing that would be sold? Surly the project manager would assign jobs evenly to make it fair and fun for all involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
.Me
Hi all, and happy new year. Have just returned from Devon and have been catching up on some posts. Waiting to hear if Johnathon will pick up the gauntlet (it's not meant to be a poison chalice Johnathon). Good luck J if you do decide to run with it!!! G.
Mycncuk project sounds a fine idea. With regards to the of details of a plan and its consequences i.e. not willing to spoon feed and spec might not be suitable for the application. I think the reason why you want a ready design is that the reason for a DIY CNC router/mill is the cost and experimentation with design adds cost. I’m not sure about the worker/freeloader paradigm. As the worker did you generate all the knowledge you use? Are we not all in receipt of the ‘wealth of ages’ from our dead ancestors that we did not earn, pay for or deserve but merely inherited? (sorry for the pomposity).
Design wise I get the impression you either need several categories of machine or perhaps one design that is very scalable. Presumably the design approach is to define your requirements first then define a specification and from that sketch a few designs. Presumably if site users are prepared to define all possible requirements, perhaps from that there are sub groupings. I would like to know myself what the minimum spec for various types of tasks are e.g. what strength of frame/gantry, stepper torque and spindle power/rpm are required for say aluminium sheet cutting (can general rules of thumb be used to simplify the process). My guess at user requirements plus my own are:
Functions:3D recessed shapes, engraving, cutting sheets, etc.
Materials: Copper clad board, aluminium alloy(series? 1000, etc, tempering?), brass, copper, wood(hard wood, software, composite MDF/ply, carbon and glass composites, plastics (acrylic, etc), etc.
Nugget i think you need to read the whole thread.....Welcome by the way.
I agree. I would also like to say that the idea was to design a "starter" machine that would encourage "would be cncer's" to takeQuote:
Originally Posted by Swarfing
their first steps into the wonderful world of cnc. G.
I think the purpose of a starter machine is to:
1) provide a machine which is known to be fully compatible and working.
2) be cost effective
3) require minimal skill level
Suppliers, materials and software need to be specified to guarantee compatibility.
The machine should not be over-specced and all parts should be fully utilised.
Precision parts should be bought off the shelf with the only fabrication requiring basic hand tools where possible.
Like so many people state on here - you need to specify exactly what your goals are before you can hone in on the solution.
I don't think it matters what your goals are, there will always be too many of them for a group project.
The thread is 6 months old now and so far has got nowhere and sorry to say this but it never will.
Only way a machine will get built is if one person decides to build what 'he' thinks is right and offers it for sale.
Then all the cheap arsed vultures will gather and pull holes in it and reckon it's too expensive and you could do it cheaper.
However missing the point that they are still weld to the fence, not sat on it.
John, I agree with most of your sentiments, and the idea was never to try to "design a machine by committee", merely to come up with a set of general parameters for a starter machine and then for one person to "run" with it. There are certainly enough people on this forum that could do that if they wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
Of course there would be critics - does that really matter? This thread has been dormant for the last six months just because
of such comments, and I only reintroduced it because there have been several posts from people asking about about small starter machines/kits etc. G.
So what parameters would you suggest? Lets see if 1% or 2% of people agree with them...Quote:
Originally Posted by GEOFFREY
Tempting...Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
I will post the drawings for a medium size machine I've designed soon, but I doubt anyone would use them since you can't make it without a milling machine & CNC router & lathe, which is likely to be a problem with any general design people come up with here.
If you can minimise and simplify the pieces requiring milling/turning then these could be supplied by people on the forum. I often reads posts on here where people are asking for parts cut, why not pre-defined parts for the cnc machine?
Exactly my thoughts re "by the people for the people", once we know what parts need making and the demand, some people maybe happy to do like a batch of the same part with something like a minimum amount, it dosnt need to be done for free but could be done with the intension of covering costs and to help people, rather than looking to turn a profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spedley
I dont think offering yet another commercial machine is the way to go, (open source, with a little help from my friends) seems like the right way of describing it.
.Me
At least we do seem to be getting a few positive ideas - maybe it will exceed "J's" 1 - 2%. I am looking forward to seeing your new design Jonathan, but do suspect that it will fall outside of the "starter" category. When I started this thread I knew that it would be contraversial, but had hoped that one of the more experienced members might be prepared to give it a go. the basic parameters were discussed some time ago, but were not finalised. The idea is to open up discussion about the requirements of a smallish robust uncomplicated "starter" machine and then hope to find that a project manager/coordinator could make the final design decisions and decide on materials suppliers etc. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that with the mathematical prowess of people like Irving and Jonathan, engineering skills of people like Jazz and John S and the dogged determination of people like myself we could soon have the best machine plan/kit available. In mentioning names I hope that I have not offended anybody, I was only referring to "people like" as I am aware that the forum has many other highly skilled and knowledgeable members. G
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEOFFREY
Being brand brand new to this site and to the world of CNC I am enjoying all the discussion and getting caught up. I just have a little suggestion for spec for the 'peoples' machine. Perhaps take the popular cheap 'Ebay' machine claimed specs as a starting point and build/design based on that. They seem to be a popular size for people while there of course will always be differences in what people want.
Thank you for the great forum.
My company has started making the V-slot profile that is extremely popular for 'starter' machines. I will be advertising this profile on this forum in the New Year as well as other items that my company supplies.
If there is a real interest in pursuing the 'How about a mycncuk cnc router project?' then I am able to offer a reasonable discount to any MYCNCUK forum member that buys a machine via the forum organisers providing that there are enough people interested. I can offer 400x300, 400x600 or 900x600 frame sizes with all necessary parts to assemble the frame. Motors and electrics etc can be sourced from many, many places so it does not seem right to offer a full off the shelf machine as even beginners to this CNC game have their own ideas of what motors, steppers, programs etc they want to use.
I sincerely hope that this post is taken in the manner it is meant.... to help with the idea of developing a MYCNCUK machine that is aimed at those who are new or fairly new to CNC which is who I believe the topic was originally aimed at and who want to machine 'light' materials. I have attached pictures as an example of what is on offer. Please note. These machines are aimed at users who will machine light materials such as MDF, Plywood, Acrylics, Delrin (acetal) and thin aluminium sheet materials, they are NOT aimed at those people who want absolute precision when machining a block of metal or similar.
I am ONLY interested in supplying these machines IF the powers that be (on this topic especially) and at MYCNCUK are also on board with the project and 'they' can organise member interest to realise a MYCNCUK machine that can be sold to members at a discount from the real price AND they do not mind me writing this post.
If I have broken any rules then please excuse my writing and remove or edit the post as is seen fit.
Attachment 10933Attachment 10934Attachment 10935
Thought I'd bump this thread....
Very interesting reading. I found it while googling around looking for reasons why not to waste £600 on an ebay 3040!
One suggestion regarding capabilities of a machine, why not take a leaf out of the 3d printer book and make the machine capable of machining it's own parts.
That way your first project on completion can be making a set of bits to sell to someone else...
I was also a bit disappointed to see this concept had stalled, when it was one of the first threads I'd read after arriving. I do however appreciate why, I think, in terms of the variability there is in end machine design. My thought was that a decision logic tree could be developed that highlighted the decisions to be made in coming up with a design, with the specific details being decided by each person. This is essentially what people who design anything do, at all points in the process. it is of course a potentially large undertaking, and still impossible to teach the process of how people fill in the specific details. However, there are some things that come up time and again in design review on here, and these are the areas where some tutorial decision logic wouldn't go amiss. I.e. steel frame design, z axis design, gantry design, etc. ...and now I'm rambling myself into an impossible corner.
I think one approach would be to assume it's a machine for beginners and therefore cannot require access to a mill or lathe to make.
If machined parts are required, there should be a source for ready made parts, ideally as I mentioned above, parts that can be made on the same machine.
Maybe another approach is to start with a Chinese ebay machine and provide a step by step guide to upgrading and retro fitting it... Maybe that create a narrower scope and prevent the impossible search for a 'prefect' machine that suits everyone.
Whilst I can see that that method could help a lot of people, it would restrict peoples thinking. In a way I'd rather let people think for themselves and even post the odd wacky idea in build logs, as just occasionally you see a good design idea which we can all develop and benefit from. A generic design procedure can detract from innovation.Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJenkinson
That may not make so much sense from an economic point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
The high level design logic tree would be a bit of work, but I don't think it would starve creativity. There's always place for macro and micro evolution in solving specific problems. The truth is that real world design and iteration is dirty and organic, it is not by wrote, which kind of backs up your point. The shock for people coming here is that they're going to have to get down and dirty rather than take the well trodden path.
(Slightly off topic)
I find it interesting that while everyone slags off the chinese machines, but clearly they can supply decent rails, bearings, spindles, ball screws, motors and extrusions...
How come no one is doing a kit of bits with decent electronics (geko's) and cables...
Maybe that's what the myCNCuk machine should be...
If it wasn't for Deming and TQM, the Chinese wouldn't be making decent anything, engineering wise. Bureaucratic and autocratic cultures don't easily refine the right way of doing things.
A Lego type approach would work for me.
Say you break the machine down into components such as;
Frame
Gantry
Linear motion (rails/bearings, rack & pinion, ball nuts, etc.)
Control Electronics (psu, safety circuit, bob, etc.)
Motion Electronics (stepper/servo motors & drivers)
Z axis
Spindle and VFD
Software (Mach3 Linux, DSP, etc.)
etc.
Then for each component various designs could be put forward and anyone wishing to build a machine could pick'n'mix the components to 'Lego' a machine together.
Yes I think that would be good, but you'd need to decide on standard sizes for each system component so you can mix and match.
As someone else said, to build momentum and not be reliant on any particular members or the same old members, the design should be capable of replicating itself. So the first jobs for the newly built machine is to build parts for the next set of newbies to the forum.
It could become a right of passage into the group. And there would be a shared mass of experience to help the newbie. And we can all sit around sharing our fond memories of our first mycncuk machine....
This most likely means capability to machine aluminium parts [which is any machine, so no problem! :) ].
This thread could then become the longest ever as more and more machines get built, and the design and list of suppliers is constantly refined.
Maybe all it needs is one person to post the first design and shopping list.
How did you screw the hiwin guides to the square profile?