Router has died. Need Advise Please.

The time has come to replace my black & Decker router with another router or a spindle air cooled or water cooled. For me it is a bit of a mine field on what to pick, now I have a budget of not over £200 and I would prefer if it was less.
I manly cut up to 6mm ply and balsa but I do have one job to cut out some brackets from 6mm aluminium,
now I know that a spindle is a lot quieter but what size, the router I had was 600 watt will a 600 watt spindle do the same job. Would I be better going for water cooling and spending a bit more or will air cooling be just as good and what about VDF for control, there is a 1.5kw spindle air cooled with a 1.5KW VDF inverter for under £200 just add mounting. Or would I be better going for a 600Watt air cooled spindle with a power supply for Mach3 with mounting for under £150. considering my budget?
What would be the easiest way and best way considering my budget? Or should I just stick with the noise of a Router?

Mike.

Forget the router and go with a spindle, but you should give serious consideration to the speed range you need. G.

Thanks for the quick reply Geoffrey.
Ok spindle it is, the router is out. My old router speed was 30000 the spindles that I was looking at has there speed range 3000 to 12000 for the 600 watt and 24000 for the VFD and spindle all my bits are single flute and V bits.
What do you mean about speed range
what speed range should I be looking for?

I was thinking about ensuring that the speed range for the spindle is suitable for the materials you are cutting. I don't know what the lowest speed the 24k spindle will run at, but that is probably your best bet. G.

It doesn't say what the slow speed is on that spindle, but as you can see I cut mostly balsa and ply but I still have this 6mm aluminium to cut and There may be another job if this one works out.
What do you think about the min watts I could run. Also is the VFD easy to set up I see the reading are in Hz and I do not understand what Hz are in relationship to RPM?

The relationship between frequency (cycles per sec. or hz) for the motor speed is cycles per minute (3000 at our mains frequency of 50hz) divided by the no. of pairs of poles on the motor. The motor will actually run at a slightly lower speed due to slip. I am fairly sure that is correct, but am talking from memory of of nearly 60 years ago!!! G.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

Also is the VFD easy to set up I see the reading are in Hz and I do not understand what Hz are in relationship to RPM?

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rpm = (frequency (Hz) x 60 (seconds)) / number of pairs of poles.

so for example: a 4 pole motor connected to 50 Hz mains supply. rpm = (50 x 60) / 2 = 1500
This is the theoretical speed, the actual speed is rather less because the motor need 'slip' so it works out about 1425 rpm at the rated load.
My spindle is rated at 24000 rpm at 400 Hz so it must be a 2 pole motor

number of pairs of poles = (400 x 60) /24000 = 1, therefore number of poles = 2

edit: Geoffrey, looks like we both posted at the same time

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

Thanks for the quick reply Geoffrey.
Ok spindle it is, the router is out. My old router speed was 30000 the spindles that I was looking at has there speed range 3000 to 12000 for the 600 watt and 24000 for the VFD and spindle all my bits are single flute and V bits.
What do you mean about speed range
what speed range should I be looking for?

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I just checked here Cutting Speeds - LittleMachineShop.com
and for a 6mm cutter is says about 2500 rpm for aluminium, I'm no expert on this though so just using the figures given. This implies you do need some speed control and 3000 may be a reasonable lower figure. Having looked at spindles, in some cases 24000 rpm is a special case in that it needs bearings to suite, 18000 rpm max. may be a cheaper route.

Also very important, the power of the spindle is usually quoted for max speed, so a 1.5kw 18000 rpm spindle would deliver 1.5kw at that speed only. At a lower speed it would be derated so would deliver considerably less. With this in mind and the fact you want to cut aluminium at low speed then a 1.5kw spindle would be the minimum I think.

Thanks that helps. I have found a 800 watt spindle Frequency: 400 Hz speed 0-24000 R/Min with a 1.5Kw VFD in my price range and its water cooled would be nice and quiet. Would just need coolant pump Radiator and tank I think this is the way I will go if you think this would work for me?

The spindle power output is roughly proportional to the speed, so at just 3000rpm you only get a fraction of the rated 1.5kW. The question to ask therefore isn't, 'what is the minimum speed the spindle will run at?', it's 'at what point is the power output of the spindle too low to be useful?'.

If the list of materials you are cutting is complete, then the 1.5kW spindle will be fine. The only thing it would struggle at is if you need to drill the aluminium, but if you've got a pillar drill that's clearly not a problem.

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Originally Posted by EddyCurrent

I just checked here Cutting Speeds - LittleMachineShop.com
and for a 6mm cutter is says about 2500 rpm for aluminium, I'm no expert on this though so just using the figures given.

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With a 6mm carbide cutter you'd use around 13000rpm.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

Would just need coolant pump Radiator and tank I think this is the way I will go if you think this would work for me?

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Yes and you wont even need the radiator if you have a good size tank of water/favorite solution.

Many thanks for all the help this afternoon, I have just placed a order for a water cooled spindle and VFD, I will probably need help setting up, but I know where to come.
Thanks all again Mike.

After reading more about VFD and after speaking to the supplier, I have changed my order to a Air cooled spindle and matching power supply that is simple to connect to MACH3. It will have more power than my old router with a lot more control, so at slower speed it will be quieter. It's all I need
I have been reading lots of problems with VFD in setting up and also one which overheated his new spindle to scrap after getting the setting wrong on the VFD and he had a electrician wiring it.
So I'm happy with the decision that I have made. Keeping it simple. Mike.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

After reading more about VFD and after speaking to the supplier, I have changed my order to a Air cooled spindle and matching power supply that is simple to connect to MACH3. It will have more power than my old router with a lot more control, so at slower speed it will be quieter.

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Mike, How is the speed controlled ? does the motor have a two speed winding ?

The speed is controlled by a potentiometer or connected to the breakout board, I think it has just 2 wires going to the spindle, But I have no seen it yet so could be wrong. The seller says that there are power from 230v to power unit then wire to the spindle and the 2 wires from the breakout board. Then 3 wires to the potentiometer from the power supply.
I will know better when it arrives.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

After reading more about VFD and after speaking to the supplier, I have changed my order to a Air cooled spindle and matching power supply that is simple to connect to MACH3. It will have more power than my old router with a lot more control, so at slower speed it will be quieter. It's all I need
I have been reading lots of problems with VFD in setting up and also one which overheated his new spindle to scrap after getting the setting wrong on the VFD and he had a electrician wiring it.
So I'm happy with the decision that I have made. Keeping it simple. Mike.

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Sorry to say this but that was a mistake and in the long run I don't think it's any simpler because of limitations in use.
The VFD's are not hard to setup at all and ounce done that's it you never touch them again. For every one that have trouble there are 1000 that don't and even then it's not the VFD to blame but the user's lack of knowledge or care to make sure they have the correct settings. To fry one of these Spindles they would have needed to have it very wrong.!

Air cooled or Water cooled connecting to Mach is the same. Both will need speed control if you want to control speed from within the G-code. Both will need a relay to just control On/Off which your BOB will most likely have. The VFD has one built into it which can be programmed to come on or off with the spindle to control water pump or what ever you desire.

The thing the supplier may not have mentioned is the Duty cycle of the Air cooled spindle. The time can run the spindle before having to turn it off for a rest and cool down.!! . . The Cheap air cooled spindle if run at full speed will possibly need resting for 20-30mins every 2-3hrs and even the expensive Air cooled spindles will need resting 8-10hrs if run at full speed.
The WC spindles don't really have a Duty cycle and they run so cool they can be run at full speed for days without any trouble, mine often gets run for 12hrs none stop without even flinching.

Also because they are Air cooled they will have a fan just like a Router so will be noisy. WC spindles are much quieter and yes you still get same noise from cutter/material but even allowing for that they are much quieter than Air cooled spindles or routers.!!. . . Really Only those who have had Both can fully appreciate how much.!!

If possible I would reverse that decision.!!

+1 to what Jazz has just said. You've made a mistake.

If the motor has got two wires then it's most likely a DC-motor, so 1830's technology... noisy, brushes that'll wear out and low efficiency (hence heat and potentially low duty cycle). It's also likely to have poorer quality bearings - might not even be angular contact, so the stiffness will be lower and who knows how long it will last.

First post here and I have done the same as Bush Flyer, I ordered a dc spindle with power unit from Ebay. Well guess what I did this morning, after finding this thread, Yes you know it, I phoned the supplier this morning and cancelled my order I was lucky that he was happy to refund my money. Looks like I will have to read some more about spindles.

I to have just cancelled my order again. And I won't be able to order there for a long time as it was that seller who advised me to buy the DC spindle and power unit. And when I tried to order the water cooled spindle and VFD as before, he said that there were none in stock at the original price. So have asked for a refund which will take seven days.
This will give me lots of time to decide what to buy.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

I to have just cancelled my order again. And I won't be able to order there for a long time as it was that seller who advised me to buy the DC spindle and power unit. And when I tried to order the water cooled spindle and VFD as before, he said that there were none in stock at the original price. So have asked for a refund which will take seven days.
This will give me lots of time to decide what to buy.

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No surprise then he tried to talk you into the DC Spindle.!! . . . . . . . .But Don't worry about it because there are loads of suppliers quite willing to supply.!

You won't regret cancelling thats for sure.!

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Originally Posted by Modelling Mike

First post here and I have done the same as Bush Flyer, I ordered a dc spindle with power unit from Ebay. Well guess what I did this morning, after finding this thread, Yes you know it, I phoned the supplier this morning and cancelled my order I was lucky that he was happy to refund my money. Looks like I will have to read some more about spindles.

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Originally Posted by Bush Flyer

I to have just cancelled my order again. And I won't be able to order there for a long time as it was that seller who advised me to buy the DC spindle and power unit. And when I tried to order the water cooled spindle and VFD as before, he said that there were none in stock at the original price. So have asked for a refund which will take seven days.
This will give me lots of time to decide what to buy.

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There is a nice thread on the 2.2Kw spindles here if you havnt seen it yet: The 2.2Kw Chinese Spindles - Info, Setup and Advice + More

.Me

Thanks for pointing out this thread it is very informative and anyone contemplating buying a spindle should read this first before spending any money, I for one will read it more that once before placing an order again.

I have just ordered a VFD and water cooled spindle, Now to save cost and more important clutter I was thinking of just putting a large water tank under the table instead of a radiator and fan for cooling. How large a tank will I need? will 20 litres be large enough and how many litres a hour will the water pump have to pump to keep the spindle cool if worked hard like cutting aluminium? and if I ran antifreeze as coolant what percentage of antifreeze to water will I use?

Cooling requirements greatly depend on how much power you draw from the spindle, but in general people use these spindles at well below their rated power, so you can get away without much to cool it. 20 litres should be fine - that's about what I use.

As for the pump, it's easy to calculate if you know how much power to dissipate, but knowing that is not so trivial. If you get something like this one it will be fine:

Aquarium Fish Tank Pond Submersible Water Pump 3000L/H | eBay

Thanks Jonathan, I've put the pump on my watch list, but will try to get a new one first, all parts are coming from the UK except the spindle mount but I am waiting on a reply from a supplier in the UK to get back to me so should not be to long and I will be back up and running all going well.

I'm about to order wiring for the new spindle and was wondering should I buy CY 4 core 1.5mm cable for the spindle and CY 3 core 1.5mm cable for the power to the inverter or could I reduce the cable down to 1mm. I have been looking for a diagram for the wiring and have found some very conflicting diagrams, but I could not find one diagram with cy cable and where to connect the shield then I found one site saying do not use cy cable for mains connection the more I read the more confused I am getting so I will rely on what is said here.

The VFD is 1.5kw HUANYANG VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE.
The motor is a, Germany Imported Bearing, water cooled spindle 0.8Kw

The best information that was pointed out to me was this thread http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/router...vice-more.html
But it did not tell me if I should use CY cable to power the VFD and it did not show the earth and the shield wire.
This is the cable calculator that I used with a 3% volt drop. http://quickbit.co.uk/swa-cable-calculator.html and it always comes out at 1.5mm ?

I apologise for asking simple questions, but wiring and setting up of this is out my comfort zone.

I have used cy cable 1mm 4 core from the inverter to the spindle, 3 cores are for driving the spindle and the fourth core is to earth (my spindle has a 4 pin socket on it) on mine pin 4 was not connected to anywhere, I took the top off and soldered a wire from pin 4 to one of the socket mounting bolts on the spindle (I had to put a longer bolt in and then use a nut on the inside).
The shield on the cy cable is only earthed and the inverter end.
The mains cable to the inverter only need 1mm standard 3 core flex. ..Clive

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Originally Posted by Clive S

The mains cable to the inverter only need 1mm standard 3 core flex. ..Clive

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Additionally, since we know that 3-phase power transmission is more efficient than single phase, that shows we can use a bit less than 1mm^2 cable from the inverter to the spindle. However the cost difference is likely to be negligible over such a small length, so I wouldn't worry too much. I used the same 1.5mm^2 4-core CY cable for my stepper motors and spindle, simply because at the time obtaining a reel of that cable was more cost effective than getting a smaller length of two.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

Additionally, since we know that 3-phase power transmission is more efficient than single phase, that shows we can use a bit less than 1mm^2 cable from the inverter to the spindle. However the cost difference is likely to be negligible over such a small length, so I wouldn't worry too much. I used the same 1.5mm^2 4-core CY cable for my stepper motors and spindle, simply because at the time obtaining a reel of that cable was more cost effective than getting a smaller length of two.

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I have use 1mm for the spindle and steppers as they are only 3-4mtr long and fit the plugs better .. Clive

I would have a look at various manuals for major inverter manufacturers to see what they say, these can be viewed or downloaded as pdf's.
For example an ABB manual says for 1.5kW the input cable should be 2.5mm^2, motor cable should be 1.5mm^2

"Motor cables
(recommended for input cables also)
Symmetrical shielded cable: three phase conductors, a concentric or otherwise
symmetrically constructed PE conductor and a shield

Note:
A separate PE conductor is required if the conductivity of the cable shield is not
sufficient for the purpose"

So in terms of CY cable that's 3 core cable for the motor using the outer as the earth conductor and screen, this should be connected at both ends to obviously act as an earth conductor and to give 360 degree connections for EMC shielding (that's what CY glands are for). If the CY screen is of less cross sectional area than the inner conductors then another core should be used for the earth, i.e. 4 core cable or a separate earth cable run on the outside.

The supply cable could be 4 core armoured.

Before anyone jumps on the well known idea about connecting screens at one end only I suggest you do a search for EMC cable screening first.

Bear in mind that ABB's recommendations for cable size are probably trying to cover themselves for most applications, whereas our application is quite specific. For the motor in question, the cables are quite short and the motor will spend most of its life operating well below the rated power. I therefore wouldn't be concerned with recommending 1mm^2 cable in this instance.

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Originally Posted by EddyCurrent

Before anyone jumps on the well known idea about connecting screens at one end only I suggest you do a search for EMC cable screening first.

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+1 :)

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

Bear in mind that ABB's recommendations for cable size are probably trying to cover themselves for most applications, whereas our application is quite specific.

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Jonathan, I fully understand what you are saying but it's a bit like the DIY person who installs a new 13amp socket outlet using a bit of 3 core flex because he only wants to plug a table lamp into it. They sell the house and next owner plugs a 3 bar electric fire into it.

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The supply cable could be 4 core armoured.

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Eddy Do you not think that this is a bit OTT as on these type of VFD's there is not the provision to connect wire armoured cable with a separate box. I don't know of anybody in a DIY situation that would use it. Just my two cents worth:beer: ..Clive

This is going to sound rich coming from ME but come on Lads don't turn it into an argument and pyshics lesson so to confuse the Man.

Bush Flyer 1.0mm/2 is fine for these Spindles and what I've fitted many times without any issues even on heavy use machines but if you want to cross I's & Dot the T's then use 1.5mm/2.

2.5mm/2 for the VFD Input. If near heavy traffic or chance of damage etc then armoured if not then just use 2.5 Flex not ridged mains cable.

Right 1.5mm/2 cable for the spindle and normal 3 core for the mains but the size I was going to buy 1.5mm/2 cable as that can handle 15amps, and a wall plug is only 13amps.
2.5mm/2 would be able to handle 20amps but still the wall plug is only rated at 13 amps.
Or have I got to take the main feed straight from the fuse box to get 45amp supply in the house ( I hope not.)

2.5mm^2 for the VFD input is excessive. 1mm^2 is adequate...so if you want peace of mind go for 1.5mm^2!

It's a 1.5kW spindle, so anything above that and the VFD will cut out within a few seconds - i.e. too fast for the cable to heat up, so you only need to rate the cable for 1.5kW. 1500/230=6.5 amps, hence 1mm^2 (rated for 10 amps) is plenty for a 1.5kW spindle and just enough for 2.2kW as 2200/230=9.6A.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan

It's a 1.5kW spindle, so anything above that and the VFD will cut out within a few seconds - i.e. too fast for the cable to heat up, so you only need to rate the cable for 1.5kW. 1500/230=6.5 amps, hence 1mm^2 (rated for 10 amps) is plenty for a 1.5kW spindle and just enough for 2.2kW as 2200/230=9.6A.

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Didn't realise it was 1.5Kw spindle so yep 1.5^2 fine.

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Eddy Do you not think that this is a bit OTT as on these type of VFD's there is not the provision to connect wire armoured cable with a separate box. I don't know of anybody in a DIY situation that would use it. Just my two cents worth:beer: ..Clive

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It's recommended that the supply cable also has a screen so I was meaning the supply cable to the control panel enclosure which I assumed would be metal and wall mounted. Just because people keep saying it's DIY I'm not into dumbing things down. I would suggest the supply be fed by a 16 amp minimum supply, if you want a plug and socket then it's the blue type.

Right that's it sorted, I have ordered 4 core 1.5mm/2 screened and 1.5mm/2 normal 3 core mains.
Thanks for all your help, once I have it set up and I run into problems I will probably need your help again.:thumsup:

From your post #25

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The VFD is 1.5kw HUANYANG VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE.
The motor is a, Germany Imported Bearing, water cooled spindle 0.8Kw

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I take it your spindle is 0.8Kw .. Clive

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Originally Posted by Clive S

From your post #24

I take it your spindle is 0.8Kw .. Clive

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Ahh, this is the point where you consider Eddy's post #31:

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Originally Posted by EddyCurrent

Jonathan, I fully understand what you are saying but it's a bit like the DIY person who installs a new 13amp socket outlet using a bit of 3 core flex because he only wants too plug a table lamp into it. They sell the house and next owner plugs a 3 bar electric fire into it.

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We wouldn't want someone to change the 800W spindle to 1.5kW and potentially melt the 0.75mm^2 wire that would be fine for the former...