ok, first attempt using sketchup 8

[deannos]

Well seen as your using steel for the frame then I'd probably look towards using that. Simplest way would be an I beam RSJ type beam.
Would get 180x100 for about £30 if your buying steel for rest of machine. You can buy 1500mm length from Metals4U for £37 plus postage.

.

I like the idea of using the RSJ, less for me to do. I assume i wouldn't need to box this in and it can be left as is, would it need support or stiffeners at each end.

[JAZZCNC]

I like the idea of using the RSJ, less for me to do. I assume i wouldn't need to box this in and it can be left as is, would it need support or stiffeners at each end.

Here's how I'd go about it.! . . .Miniumum welding and very strong. I've drawn it with welded corner braces but this could be built without any welding what so ever just drill and bolt if you used 19mm plate for the corner brackets.
Personally I'd weld 5mm plates in the corners and proably a few extra braces across it's length round the back side to just help reduce resonance but again these could easily be bolted, just weldings quicker.
I'd also probably incorparate a thin detachable cover plate on front with slot in it using brush's like in other design just to protect the screw from debris, esp if main use is wood. For the little extra work and expense it will save the screw big time. You could use flexible consertina type covers but they are expensive and can be akward to setup.


EDIT: OR you could just cut a slot in the RSJ and mount the screw on back side and cover with thin plate, something like clear perspex so you can see workings.!! Added pic (RSJ4) with slot in couldnt be arsed to alter sides or move motors but again you'll get the idea.
It will weaken the gantry thou and some extra bracing along it's length would be required.

[Jonathan]

The torsional stiffness of I section is very poor compared to RHS or box section and clearly the ganty twisting directly leads to tool deflection (proportional to the extension of the Z-axis) parallel to the Y-axis. For the same mass you should be able to make a much stronger gantry with RHS, or an equally strong but much lighter gantry. The difficulty is the position of the Y-axis ballscrew is sub-optimal, but you should be able to get it close to between the rails. That's why people often use two pieces for the gantry with the ballscrew between. That also allows adjustment to get the rail mounting surfaces parallel.

Routercnc's spreadsheet posted a few years ago on this forums lets you compare the sections easily.

With this setup you'll be ok for anywoods really so long as your not expecting to cut 20mm in one pass.!!

I've done that in plywood...pretty scary at first but the second cutter survived!

[JAZZCNC]

The torsional stiffness of I section is very poor compared to RHS or box section and clearly the ganty twisting directly leads to tool deflection (proportional to the extension of the Z-axis) parallel to the Y-axis.

There you go again Jonathan completely missing the point.!! . . . . YES AGREE there are stronger and lighter ways to build a Gantry BUT and here's the point.!! THIS WILL EASILY HANDLE THE JOB OF CUTTING WOOD AND BE MORE THAN STRONG ENOUGH . . very easy to build and cheap easy to source.

From what I under stand Dean intends mainly wood use so the Z extension will be minimal, or should be for best results, so given that it's only 1500mm long and twin screw driven being securely tied into both the X axis bearing plates and the gantry end plates and with a good steel thickness on RSJ then the twisting(torsion) will be minimal.

Not every body has the skills or equipment you and I have so minimising the equipment required but still having a strong gantry doesn't get any easier than this.! . . .Drill and saw/grinder are the only tools required.

[deannos]

I would of also thought with the end plates it would be more than up to do the job i require. But i have to bow to knowledge of you guys who know more than i ever will. Was poking around on another forum and found this, but unfortunately i don't think there is a build log.

[routercnc]

Hi Deanos,

I've compared the following 1500mm long steel gantry shapes for tool deflection due to gantry twisting (when cutting wood in the X direction):
_____________________I beam__RHS____RHS
Width _______________100_____100_____100
Depth _______________180_____180_____180
Flange/wall thickness ___6________6_______3
Mass (kg) ____________26______38______19

Deflection (mm)______0.021___0.00037__0.00068

Clearly RHS is better, but I beam is also 'useable' for cutting wood. In the end it is about what is sufficient for your needs and what you can comfortably make.

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Deanos,

I've compared the following 1500mm long steel gantry shapes for tool deflection due to gantry twisting (when cutting wood in the X direction):
_____________________I beam__RHS____RHS
Width _______________100_____100_____100
Depth _______________180_____180_____180
Flange/wall thickness ___6________6_______3
Mass (kg) ____________26______38______19

Deflection (mm)______0.021___0.00037__0.00068

Clearly RHS is better, but I beam is also 'useable' for cutting wood. In the end it is about what is sufficient for your needs and what you can comfortably make.

Ok didn't see this or Jonathans last post so this apply's to both post's.

First I'm not knocking the Calculations or saying they are wrong but your both missing the POINT. . . .!! IT WILL DO THE JOB AND DO IT GOOD.!! . . . IT'S CHEAP AND EASY.!!

It's easy to build with absolutly minimal machining or drilling, far less Jonathan than my first design which yes is stronger but much more expensive.

Jonathan good design is about building the best machine to do the intended use accurately and effiecently. A good designer will always design a machine to do the required job with a certain safety percentage designed in and no more. Any more is just wasted expense and ineffiecent.

Working On your design criteria then you FAILED because you could have used far heaver gauge box section or steel plate rather than Aluminium or why not go the whole hog and Cast some Iron castings.!!. . You had the knowledge,equipment and abilty so why not.? . . . . . Because it didn't warrant the extra cost and effort to accumplish what you intended to do with the machine.

I've just checked price with my supplier and I can get 1x1800 & 2x1000mm 178x102 RSJ 8mm steel for £75 no vat cut to length delivered.
That will do both the gantry and the X axis. Or Just the gantry would be £37.!!

So Profile/plate way:
Ali plate 4mtr x 150 x 9.5mm = £86inc vat + £10 delivery = £96 (400mm left over)
Profile (as per my other design)1800 x 90x45H = £41.50 x 2= £83 + £10 delivery = £93 . . .or 1800x45x45 (As dean's design) =£43 +£10 del = £53 . . .OR. .
80x40x3 steel box section £39
Plus lots more Nuts and bolts so another £10

Total £199 OR 45x45 £159 OR Steelbox £145

OR

RSJ way:
RSJ 1800x178x102 £37
Nuts bolts £5 (far less required)

Total £42

Also a lot less drilling work which will also add to the cost because of worn/snapped drills.!


Now taking the RHS route and regards the Calc's and price stand point theres also the issue that like for like dimensions where used. Now 180x100x6mm RHS is not a common size and the nearist would be 160x80x6mm Which is £160 so no saving there and it won't be as easy to work with as RSJ.

Also the calculated strength of the I beam is going to go up because of 8mm thickness not 6mm and the RSH will drop slightly due to lesser dimensions, it will still be stronger but the difference is less but more the point the Ibeam which is already more than suitable will increase.!

This is my POINT.!!

[Swarfing]

The torsional stiffness of I section is very poor compared to RHS or box section and clearly the ganty twisting directly leads to tool deflection (proportional to the extension of the Z-axis) parallel to the Y-axis.

Jazz i'm with you on this one, i would love to see Jonathan try and twist an RSJ mounted on his machine? you are still talking 5/6mm minimum steel plate.

[JAZZCNC]

I would of also thought with the end plates it would be more than up to do the job i require.

Yes Dean it will be more than up to cutting wood.! . . . . There are issue's which arn't Ideal like easy setup of parallel rails like Jonathan touched upon. . . But if like I said with carefull selection of material they will be very close and then It's not difficult to manipulate them parallel with filling/grinding and spacers/shims.
My experinece with Cheap chinese round rail is that it's not straight or consistant in dimesions along it's length, just as the bearings mounting surfaces are rarely level, flat or true so shimming is nearly always required to fine tune. . . BUT AGAIN . . . It's down to intended use and for machineing wood then the tolerences are much lower and forgiving so can be tolerated.
If you want to wear belt & braces (excuse the PUN!!) and just add some bracing along it's length.!!


Regards that Pic you posted I'm pritty I've seen that before and it was actually built to cut stone.?? . . . . But don't quote on that!!. . . . But I've certainly seen one built the same that was cutting stone and it actually came up for sale on Ebay.

[deannos]

Regards that Pic you posted I'm pritty I've seen that before and it was actually built to cut stone.?? . . . . But don't quote on that!!. . . . But I've certainly seen one built the same that was cutting stone and it actually came up for sale on Ebay.

Jazz,
I found this on cnczone and reading his posts i think you are correct and it was used for cutting stone, he was in Indonesia. If i chose the earlier option of 2 box sections sandwiched between plate, would it be ok to use 10mm plate and use 20mm on the Z axis only. Just want to weight up all the options at the moment.

Just out of interest, i'm looking at using 1605 and 2005 ball screws, belts and pulleys if possible. I had a go at the weekend cutting the infamous Aztec/Mayan calendar, approx 12" size, after 3 hours i had cut less than a 1/5th. How much faster roughly would using ball screws make a difference.