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Thanks A Camera, yes I appreciate that, i know they don't fit - it was the 40mm size that i wanted, as that will allow alignment of the linear rails as they are exactly 40mm apartQuote:
Originally Posted by Amera
WoodKnotQuote:
Originally Posted by Amera
Hello all -
So I was initially thinking of using my Dewalt 1/4" router for my spindle -
But thinking of other options, what would you recommend?
Do i need to go water cooled or air cooled? Was also thinking about the noise element as well.
I don't want to purchase the spindle mount until i know which motor I am going to use
Thanks in advance
WoodKnot
Generic option is a 2.2kw water cooled spindle, which eBay usually has abundant sources.
Bit fancier is some of the spindles Jazz is selling, but they will be more expensive.
Water-cooled is the quietest option, but if you've already got a decent router, you can always use that to begin with.
Good evening Jazz, images as requested.
Just about to take my daughter on her driving lesson
Attachment 30182Attachment 30183
Attachment 30184
Sorry, I thought this post went out much earlier
WoodKnot
Let's try again
Attachment 30185
Attachment 30186
Attachment 30187
WoodKnot
And finally JAZZCNC, the base is sat on 2040 profile
Thanks again
WoodKnot
I also have the generic 2.2Kw Wc spindles with Huanyang VFD ..:thumsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by m_c
Ok thanks, leave it with me I'll look at it ASAP, I'm going to get very busy shortly as parts for the second batch of routers are arriving any day soon , then it will be all hands on deck getting them built so time will be in short supply.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
OK, never used a water cooled unit? So presume that they come with the pump unit part?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
I have also noted that some need an inverter as well? Why do they need inverters?
This seems to be pushing up the cost considerably.
Do i really need this for just routing out a few wooden signs?
Thanks
WoodKnot
Main reason for using water cooled Spindle is the noise or lack thereof, you need an inverter as they they are three phase, you need to provide a small tank and a pump. you will be fine with an ordinary router but again it's the noise, this would get very old if you are doing a long run on the machine, you need also to be looking at a dust shoe to fit whatever device you wish to use.
Good luck
Regards
Mike
The motors then are quite large? Even compared to a good half inch router then?Quote:
Originally Posted by mekanik
Can you recommend a pump and tank Mike - it sounds like an aquarium!
Just trying to figure out what I will need -
WoodKnot
Hi JazzQuote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Have you got a link to see what I am looking at and what sort of cost please?
So i presume that the VFD is separate to the inverter -
Do i need a qualified electrician to install of of this? Considering that we can only add spur these days!
WoodKnot
Jazz must answer what is included in his price, but yes, to use a water cooled spindle, you need a pump and hoses and also a big bucket of some sort.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Yes, for the motor he is talking about you definitely need an inverter. The motor many people prefer to use is a brushless three phase motor. The inverter outputs three phase 220V and you need it to generate that and for speed/on/off control.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
It is definitely pushing up cost and complexity quite considerably compared to using a simple router you planned to use, but it also increases the quality of your work.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
No, not really. You have actually several options.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
1. You can use an air cooled spindle motor, like I do. The "need" for the water cooled version is really exaggerated on some sites. While when you cut air it is more quiet than air cooled motors, but that benefit is immediately erased as soon as you start cutting because the cutting noise is taking over. Once you use the spindle for real cutting, the noise benefits are gone. Personally I'd never use a water cooled motor, been happily using my air cooled for a long time now. I even use it at slow speeds (4500rpm) to drill in aluminium and plastics, done that for a long time now and still no issues. Many claim that you can't use air cooled spindles because the dust will be blown all over the place. Now, I don't cut wood, except the waste board surfacing, but PCB generates a lot of fine dust and it really isn't an issue at all. Of course, regardless of what you cut, a dust shoe is highly recommended, but that is valid also for water cooled spindle.
2. You can use other type of spindles, everything between a Dremel to any router you can mount on the Z and of course, lift and lower with it. I think though that the router you bought is a bit too big, but all depends on the Z, the fixture and the Z motor. In fact, you can use a smaller DC spindle also, but it won't be that efficient. There are plenty alternatives. Many people use ordinary routers, but they are very noisy, even compared to air cooled 3-phase brushless spindles.
The best alternative is a 3-phase brushless motor, but yes, it adds to the costs and complexity, even if you'd go for an air cooled one. Never the less, there are plenty alternatives. Personally, I started cheap and simple, used a DC motor initially, and it worked but was slow and weak (400W). Now I use a 1.5kW brushless air cooled 3-phase motor and if I have to replace that, the only difference will be that I will buy one with a square house and a larger collet, but will continue with the air cooled version.
Thanks A Camera -
The Makita half inch router is not for the CNC - that's just for my general woodworking jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
I have four routers - a big Dewalt that is inverted in my router table, 2 Dewalts that are 1/4 inch, one is plunge only and one fixed and plunge my new 1/2 inch Makita is for using in my jigs with bigger cutters.
Which would you recommend then of the air cooled type - I think i saw one on Vevor that has the external housing for easy mounting on the Z axisQuote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
Does anyone make the dust shoes, i would be happy to buy one!
The one thing i do have is an excellent extraction system set up.
WoodKnot
I bought a mount for the cheap Chinese Makita clone and dust boot for it of ebay. they work fine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153957400...wAAOSwsQJe42nc
Just had a look on the specification for my little Dewalt D26200 - which is just really the motor unit.
It has Variable speed control from 16,000 to 27,000
So reading between the lines - fast enough for wood but not slow enough for plastic or metals.
Plastics may be something I am interested in, but generally find most polymers that I have used wrap themselves around cutters and are a pain of having to stop frequently to clean them up, especially mid cut.
But as they are a handheld router - aesthetically they do not look so good mounted on a CNC.
Those nice looking silver cylindrical ones however, look much more professional!!
WoodKnot
Thanks Fivetide - that's not too bad at all -Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivetide
WoodKnot
I can't recommend any because I only have experience with a single one, the one I use, and that is old now. I think the important thing is that it's large enough for you, so if I would buy one for you, I would select a 2.2kW with at least ER16. Also the inverter is important and there I also only have experince with one.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Hi A Camera -Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
Ok, just done a bit more research and starting to get my head around the ER collets and their sizes.
The spindles themselves look like a minefield!
WoodKnot.
Beware, there are also different ER16 collets. I made a mistake and bought a number of collet nuts not knowing that there are two sizes, M22 and M19, and of course, the ones I ordered were M19. I was pretty surprised to see that they don't fit and that was when I realized my mistake. :glee: Oh well, now I have some extra in case I ever buy something which takes ER16 M19 nuts. Not as big mistake as yours was, so I can't really complain, but learn from my mistake, it's cheaper that way... :thumsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Regarding spindles, the other thing you should know is that not all of them has the protective earth connected, and in fact, not all have a connector which allows you to connect the PE. Beware, that if you go for the spindles on your own then it is of utmost importance that you connect the PE to the spindle, otherwise you are risking your life in case there is a short between the live motor connection and the motor housing. If the spindle has only three terminals you can't connect the earth, so in my opinion, you should not buy that motor. I suppose the motors Jazz is selling does have PE, but anyway, it is your responsibility to check and fix it. All type of electrical wiring is critical, but especially the high voltage part, where safety rules and regulations must be taken care of. Make sure nobody touching your machine is risking his/her life, so if you don't have the knowledge and don't know anyone who can lead you or do it for you then you should hire a professional or go for a low voltage solution. I don't know how you planned to work with the electrical parts, but you should start considering this part now, before you start spending more, and definitely before you get something like a 3-phase spindle + VFD + pump. Remember, safety first.
Definitely too fast for some aluminium, but it's not just about RPM, it is also about the cutters you use, the diameter of them, the cutting speed (feed rate) and also the material. Not all aluminium is the same, and there are different plastics also.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
As said, that may depend on many things, but most likely is the speed rate being too low, or the cutter is the wrong sort. I have had issues with some acrylic which melted on the cutter all the time, but eventually, I managed. It must however be difficult using a manual router because you don't really know the feed rate and can't really keep it constant. As soon as you slow down a bit too much, some plastics and aluminium melts and glues onto the cutter. Some times it helps if you spray with water, but I don't normally do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Although at work we use 3-phase, sell equipment all based on 3-phase, it is something i have never used myself -
So in terms of electrical connections for 3 -phase, I would not know where to start.
When i converted the garage in my workshop I installed all the sockets (at least 15 doubles) and all the lighting.
But, as per the regs, got an electrician to fully test and complete the installation for full approval.
Maybe some more guidance from the guys on the forum that have gone down that route.
That does sound like the next big part of the project and one I will make sure that i have the full backing of prior to making any purchases.
I have purchased the power pack for the motors and the motors themselves - but that's it.
I want the frame built and completed now before i move on.
WoodKnot
You don't need a Water-cooled spindle but they are SOOOOOOOO much better than a standard router, with far less noise, stronger power, continuous duty cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
I sell them as a Kit only, this includes 2.2Kw ER20 Spindle, Huanyang VFD, 1 to 13mm Collet set, Spindle mount, water pump with the pipe. £265 + postage.
You will also need a shielded CY cable from VFD to Spindle which we can supply at £1mtr cut to length and will solder the VFD connector on free of charge.
You don't need any special wiring in the workshop and they will plug straight into a 13A supply if required. Occasionally, if you have a sensitive MCB in your Fuse box you may need to change the type from B to C MCB but this tends to happen mostly in very new properties and not very often.
The three phase you have at work and different industries is not the same. These spindle motors can not be connected to an ordinary 3-phase plug, you must use an inverter. However, to run the inverter you don't necessarily need three phase, my VFD uses one phase, but it internally converts to three. Regarding guidance on electrical installation, I prefer not to. All I can say is that it is my personal opinion that the offer you have from Jazz for all that is a bargain, even if it sounds expensive in your ears. You can probably buy the parts cheaper individually, but you save a lot of time and trouble if you buy everything soldered and ready to be plugged into a wall socket.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
BUT... before you say yes to the offer from Jazz, you MUST have your design ready, not just assume that everything fits together and works well. I mean, the whole machine MUST be ready for assembly, at least on paper, because that spindle is heavy, so you can't use small and weak steppers. You have already made an expensive mistake, don't continue the same route. I am sure that the delivered good from Jazz would work, but can your gantry handle everything? Have you decided for the type of design? Have you decided for the CNC software and the interface to your PC? Will it be Linux or Windows driven? Have you made any considerations of the electronics? Can you design and install everything, connect and solder all the wires and all that's needed to do? How large is the Z and what will be the Z clearance from the table top up? There are so many things to think about, so if you have not done it already, it is time to lift a pen and take notes in a booklet called "My CNC Design" or something similar.
Don't agree with this, unlike you I have used both, and 100% a water-cooled spindle is quieter when cutting than an air-cooled spindle simply because you don't hear the fan and air turbulence. It's a little like comparing an Electric car to a combustion-engined car and saying when the wheels are turning they both make the same noise because of the tyres on the road.!!Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
Then you have the duty cycle to consider, an Air-cooled spindle as a limited amount of time it can be run before it needs to cool down, WC doesn't have any duty cycle and can be run continuously for days if required.
Until you have used a WC spindle you will never fully appreciate just how good they are.
Actually, very few of these spindles have a PE inside the connector, even the ones with 4 pins are not connected inside the housing. However, if the machine is wired correctly regards grounds on the Chassis and gantry then it's not a problem as any short circuit will be caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
But I agree if you want extra peace of mind buy a 4 Pin type and connect inside the spindle.
Good evening JazzQuote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Sounds like a great deal to me!
Something that A Camera is unaware of, is of course the much needed and much appreciated help that you are providing me.
I would like to thank you for this help, otherwise I think I would have either packed in the project, or it would have taken me a year to build..
So based on YOUR design and I must state, some of the materials that you have been forced to work with, will my set up accept your spindle pack?
Thank you again
WoodKnot
Sorry A Camera, I have got inside help ��Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
The C beam and small-sized profile is a weak link I must admit and it's testing me trying to find what I consider a suitable workaround using these profiles and the length of ball-screws etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
I haven't even looked at the gantry and Z-axis side of things yet but I will give it a good look over and see how we can stiffen it up if needed.
I can see this turning into a Frankenstein WorkBee, Oznest, or whatever they are called...:loyal:
WoodKnot's Frankenstein CNC - I like that!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Really Jazz - it'll be alright -
Let it be! - you are making the plates and lets leave it at that - it will be what it will be.
The Z Axis is very short and on the back of the X axis there is another piece of 4020 that is fastened to the back to run the cable track on.
So, lets get the plates on and give it a go - you maybe surprised - it maybe ok?
I did say maybe!
WoodKnot
Hi A Camera -Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Camera
I am Microsoft and an Android fan - so Windows - software will be Easel - Controller is BLACKBOX, no soldering (although i have purchased a kit)
Motors are Nema 23's 285oz
Should be alright :adoration:
No, I was NOT unaware of that at all, but you did not sound sure about wanting Jazz to build it for you. I think that's a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Woodknot, I don't think you realize just what a mess this miss-match of parts puts the machine design in or the complications they cause.?Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Because the size of the rails and ball-screws were never designed to fit on this frame and profile style then things have to be moved into positions that are not ideal or good.
For instance, the only way to fit the ball-screws is to now place them outwards of the gantry sides, this then leaves nothing to fasten the BK bearings onto, so we have to extend the endplates so brackets can be made which extend off at 90 degrees for the BK bearings to fasten onto.
This while not being an ideal location having the screws hanging so far off to the side can easily be done in terms of making extended plates, however, the complications are how do we allow for alignment of the screw in both horizontal and vertical alignments and the fastening of the ball-nut mount on the gantry side.? Slots in the end plates and BK plate are the answer to allow adjustment.
However, there's another issue that now the SFU mount is on the outside of the gantry which puts the SFU mounting bolts on the inside of the gantry which cannot be accessed when fastened to the linear bearings. We can't fasten the SFU bearing onto the gantry side before fitting it onto bearings because we need to align it to the ball screw.!
These are just the issues with the Y-axis and I haven't even looked at the X or Z axis but again this mismatch of parts will place similar design complications.
So maybe you can see I'm not talking about trying to design you a completely new machine that is super strong, the struggle is just making things fit together in a fashion that makes assembly possible and doesn't waste my time or yours making plates that don't work or fit.!
I know you think it's simpler than it looks but honestly it's not, however, as you have found it's very easy to F-UP which I don't intend to do.! So please say now if you want me to continue or not because I haven't got time to waste making plates which don't work.!
See pics to get some idea of the issues.
Attachment 30193Attachment 30194Attachment 30195
Good evening JazzQuote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
OK, so my ballscrews will not fit inside anyway, unless I use a different style of nut?
The ballscrews are too short for the profiles, so overall a complete mess.
Is there an alternative nut and if I got screws that are longer than the profiles, could the bearings be seated in the plates?
Your thoughts please?
Thanks
WoodKnot
The choices are limited with what you have now because as I say these parts were never designed to fit together as you planned. There is no nut you can use that will fit into the space you have in that C beam profile and the location of the rails/bearings in the position you intended. (see end shot)Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Even moving the rails onto the top and side orientation doesn't help much because of the type of profile.
In my opinion, your only choice is to go with something like I have shown and live with any compromises or start again with a different profile and design.!
Attachment 30196
Let me know what your thinking and I will continue with the other axis, because like I say it's not just the Y-axis which will give problems.
Giood morning Jazz
Please don't commit any more time to it please.
I need a bit of time now to consider my options.
Let me know what I owe you for your time please
Thanks
WoodKnot
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot
Don't owe me anything and I would be more than happy to continue if you wanted, however, my honest opinion would be to start again with new profiles like 45x90 and re-use the rails and bearings rather than trying to make everything fit those profiles.
Just let me know if you want to proceed further.
Lastly, to make you aware the motors and electrics you have bought are also less than ideal so at some point, if you continue, expect to be upgrading these or if want to do it right from the start sell them and buy decent stuff.
Yes, thanks JazzQuote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Big decision time now - not sure at the moment which way to go................
As in, try to sell what does not work (most of it) and start from scratch, but be prepared to probably lose at least 30%
Or ditch the whole project and start again at some other point in time?
The plates that you have come up with are great, but agree that they 'don't look right' due to my mismatch of purchases.
Such is life
WoodKnot
Good evening Jazz
Posted and deleted, stupid idea!
WoodKnot
Ok, let's start again, bad idea?
Attachment 30239
Attachment 30240
So, by using 3 of the 2040 profiles to create the required space?
WoodKnot
Can't see them.?Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodKnot