Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...

[NeoMorph]

I'm not jumping on the who-did-or-said-what train, but I will say that I appreciate all the advise I can get. Different perspectives only make my understanding deeper. As a beginner my main mental hurdle is to differentiate between the theoretical and practical side of things (which often don't go hand in hand). Naturally, I can only find out my capabilities by actually taking the plunge, but before I do that I do want (at least try) to make my plans as doable as possible, considering my level of competence. To this end, hearing different perspectives only helps me better understand all the pitfalls I might be up against. In the end I'd rather have a well built, but less advanced machine than a poorly assembled, but in theory top tier machine...

I’m sorry for my rather irritable last post. I was having a bad night due to pain when I came across JazzCNC’s attacking reply.

I can’t understand elitist advice who say that because I have never used a product that I cannot pass on advice I was given when I was shopping for a 2.2kw water cooled spindle for my machine.

I spent several months deliberating. I wanted a quieter setup you see.

But time after time I got the advice that while a water cooled spindle was great that an air cooled one would be better for my setup. Less hassle, less weight. It’s also the reason that last summer I rebuilt my gantry with heavier gauge uprights to support a spindle.

Jazz is 100% right that a good design with a heavier gauge setup is great and all but getting one is going to cost a lot more money. But calling the smaller machines shite and then praising the tiny eBay machines is bonkers.

If you can afford it, get a heavier gauge gantry with linear bearings and digital drives like Jazz says. Then a water cooled spindle is a no brainier. But that means a more expensive control setup. It means purchasing Mach 3 or 4. More money. Paying to have custom plates made. Yup, more money. It can get expensive fast.

What many here missed was that your original post said you want your machine to work with wood. Someone disparaged a belt driven design and Jazz actually shot them down saying don’t knock it until you try it and then yesterday he said my machine is crap because it’s driven by elastic bands lol.

Every design has pros and cons. I would love a good quality built machine but you have to be precise in building it or it ends up outputting inaccurate parts. The stiffer the build, the more accurate it will be... but the more dense it is, the heavier it is and you get sagging. Not a lot but engineers fret about parts of a millimetre.

So that’s where the aluminium extrusion system came in. Lighter beams, using a router instead of a dedicated spindle, lighter general stepper motors, grbl instead of mach3... yet still the machine can cut wood projects fine. I’ve been cutting 18mm thick plywood quite nicely on my “shite” machine.

My machine is 1.5m x 1m and it works great for what I use it for. I’ve actually fixed a few of the base machine faults (like no limit homing switches, double belting to make it closer to a rack and pinion than a belt drive, stiffened up the gantry and used a heavier gauge Z axis... oh and the SuperPID turns the router into a poor mans spindle by giving you computer control of the spindle speed and on/off) but I really wish that the original design thought more about maintenance.

I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.

[Juranovich]

I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.

I think this sums it up quite well, I'm now at that stage where (I think) I've got the design for "my perfect machine" figured out and am now shopping around for prices. Once I know what my ideal machine will cost I'll have to decide whether it's worth it or if I'll have to start toning it down. This is where the different perspectives come in, they help greatly in understanding the trade-offs of what the possible "downgradings" of components would mean in practice. At the end of the day, I reckon all of us strive to have the best machine possible given our personal constraints (time/capability/money etc.). What's great about this forum is that I seem to be getting good advice from people with actual personal experience from whatever set-up they're using. This is what I find most valuable since it allows me to make an informed choice on where to spend my euros and also to set my expectations accordingly.

While I naturally don't like to see anyone being offended, as a novice bystander, it must be said, I still pick out good insights from the sometimes unnecessarily heated debates. As always, it's up to the one looking for advice/reading the forum to decipher the value of the information being conveyed. All in all, I'm grateful for both your and JAZZ's inputs, as I am for everyone else's who's contributed to this thread and elsewhere!

NB! Hope my reply didn't sound too much of an politician's reply, it so just happens to be how I feel about things...now I'll get back to shopping around!

[JAZZCNC]

Hi,

Just to hopefully clear the air and clear any misunderstandings.

Jazz is 100% right that a good design with a heavier gauge setup is great and all but getting one is going to cost a lot more money. But calling the smaller machines shite and then praising the tiny eBay machines is bonkers.

The point of being £350 is better than £1500 for learning on. Great to test the waters and then pass on when ready for a better, bigger machine.

If you can afford it, get a heavier gauge gantry with linear bearings and digital drives like Jazz says. Then a water cooled spindle is a no brainier. But that means a more expensive control setup. It means purchasing Mach 3 or 4. More money. Paying to have custom plates made. Yup, more money. It can get expensive fast.

It doesn't need to get expensive, doesn't need Mach3 either plenty of free controllers, Linux CNC, for instance, is as good if not better and free.
Yes for someone who's disabled I understand it's more difficult but it's still do-able.
The profile is more than good enough for a great machine, it's what you hang off it that matters. This is where the Workbee etc fails badly. Linear rails and ballscrews are not that expensive from China, neither are the electronics when you shop around. It's just about doable with £1500 easier with £2k, I've helped several people who have limited means or ability's for whatever reasons build great machines under £2k.

What many here missed was that your original post said you want your machine to work with wood. Someone disparaged a belt driven design and Jazz actually shot them down saying don’t knock it until you try it and then yesterday he said my machine is crap because it’s driven by elastic bands lol.

That reference was to the size of the belt not the fact it's belt-driven. Not all belts are suitable.!

Every design has pros and cons. I would love a good quality built machine but you have to be precise in building it or it ends up outputting inaccurate parts. The stiffer the build, the more accurate it will be... but the more dense it is, the heavier it is and you get sagging. Not a lot but engineers fret about parts of a millimetre.

So that’s where the aluminum extrusion system came in. Lighter beams, using a router instead of a dedicated spindle, lighter general stepper motors, grbl instead of mach3... yet still the machine can cut wood projects fine. I’ve been cutting 18mm thick plywood quite nicely on my “shite” machine.

This my point, it doesn't need to be massively built to cut good parts that are accurate. It just needs to be built with better design and components that don't limit or cripple performance. Just because something cuts a material doesn't mean it's good at it. A properly built machine will cut it faster and more accurately with a better finish quality and that doesn't need to cost the earth to do that.

Just remember when your getting advice from the supplier or manufacturer you are often getting a biased opinion which is nearly always given with there own interests or protection in mind.!

Again my comments were not an attack on you personally and if you took them that way then I'm very sorry, it wasn't my intent.

Dean.

[NeoMorph]

Jazz... Dean, I’m John btw... crisis over. Please ignore if I rant middle of the night (meds... literally can’t help it)

Okay I have to say I’m intrigued now. I wonder how much it would cost to change a belt driven Ox to a machine that could run on linear rails.

My gantry used to be 750mm of 2x 8020. I bolted them together to make it stiffer. The two frame rails that the gantry runs on is a single 1m 8020 each side with more 8020’s at either end. The two gantry plates are taller than normal Ox plates and are made of steel.

What do you think it would take to switch to linear rails with ballscrews, including plates cut to mount the ballscrews and gantry carriage plates (I’m guessing those would need replacing).

Add in digital drivers and replacement steppers and psu. My current steppers are Motech MT-2303hs280aw 175oz 2.8a ones. THEN add in the spindle and VFD. I looked up and found my CNC xPro controller can handle external controllers so I can get away with using that.

[JAZZCNC]

Jazz... Dean, I’m John btw... crisis over. Please ignore if I rant middle of the night (meds... literally can’t help it)

Okay I have to say I’m intrigued now. I wonder how much it would cost to change a belt driven Ox to a machine that could run on linear rails.

My gantry used to be 750mm of 2x 8020. I bolted them together to make it stiffer. The two frame rails that the gantry runs on is a single 1m 8020 each side with more 8020’s at either end. The two gantry plates are taller than normal Ox plates and are made of steel.

What do you think it would take to switch to linear rails with ballscrews, including plates cut to mount the ballscrews and gantry carriage plates (I’m guessing those would need replacing).

Add in digital drivers and replacement steppers and psu. My current steppers are Motech MT-2303hs280aw 175oz 2.8a ones. THEN add in the spindle and VFD. I looked up and found my CNC xPro controller can handle external controllers so I can get away with using that.

Not fair to the OP to continue this here so start a thread if you want to persue this more and I'll comment on it.

[NeoMorph]

Hmmm okay. I did think it would assist in design theory for a new machine that improves on a a base “hobby” CNC build which is why I put it here.

[NeoMorph]

I’ve started up a new thread at http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13355...erious-Machine

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread. I should know better being an ex admin. ��

Here is one really good idea that has saved me a lot of time. Get a small A5 hardback notebook and any ideas, changes, wiring diagrams and the like so you have a physical record of what you’ve done to your machine. It’s surprising how convoluted the wiring can get as there is the mains to psu... psu to the controller board... controller to three steppers... controller to SIX limit switches... controller to VFD... controller to coolant (or in my case vacuum... controller to hardware buttons including such as emergency stop, start program, pause and more if you do choose... and finally mains to VFD and vacuum (or water pump if you use cooling.

Yup... it all adds up. So if you log and label all the wiring it is easy to track down faults That may occur and an A5 sized notebook makes it easy to hold in one hand while tracking problems and tracing wires. It it also convenient to store with your machine without getting in the way.

Here is something funny. I was just checking the forum notifications when I saw one from 2017... this shows how much a noob I am at CNC stuff... I didn’t have a clue back then, let alone a machine at that point.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11063...-A-Start-Point